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Author Topic: Raiding Goals and Changes  (Read 4935 times)
Grynni
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 07:28:37 AM »

I would say that this change isn't aimed at excluding people. I think that, for whatever reason, the officers feel that it's important to have a balanced group. This is basically the issue with Kara, vs the older raids (MC, ZG) which were entry-level: smaller group means less forgiving on class composition. I'm not an officer, hence I wasn't in on this decision, but I'll go out on a limb and say that the officers merely wish to recognize that harsher demand that Kara places. It's not about exclusion at all. There is one unfortunate side effect, which I'm sure has been considered, which is that it will lead to an imbalance in how much people get to raid (if there's only 1 hunter in the guild, that hunter is sitting awfully pretty when it comes time to pick who's going to Kara, but if there are 20 mages, any given mage's chance of going is low). That's exclusion of a sort, I suppose, but it's more a side effect, not what I think is the actual goal here.


Yes, I do see that it is a side effect.


Also, why do you say "I wonder if/when I am going to be able to raid"? I don't know how the locks are looking in terms of population these days, but unless there's a gross amount of them, you should be able to go to raids. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a gear requirement, and even if there is, it'd be something along the lines of "Be geared in mostly blues appropriate for your level". There's no time requirement apart from "Be able to show up for the raids you sign up for". There's no real reason that I can see why you should be unable to raid.


If you can't get keyed you can't raid

Lastly, you're not the only one who hasn't been going to Kara. I've gone to all of one run... and that run was a while ago, back when we were wiping on Moroes over and over. Even though I haven't done the instance, I appreciate Avid's consideration in giving gear to people who need it even if they couldn't make it on the run. It doesn't strike me at all like the analogy you made about Halloween. In fact, to me it's more like, "I know you couldn't make it to trick-or-treating last night, so I made sure I got some candy for you, so you'd at least have something even though you couldn't go". I'm just saying, be careful of making a statement on behalf of "those of us who have not done the instance". You and I both haven't seen Kara (well, I haven't seen more than a little bit, so count that if you wish), but we both have differing opinions of the chest idea.

I can't even sign up!  I have edited my previous post to express MY views and not those of others which was never my intention in the first place
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Jahira
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2007, 08:19:35 AM »

I am not an officer so this is just a regular guild member's view.



Raid policy has no effect on who is or is not keyed.

If you are not keyed then any raid policy has no effect on you at all.

Currently everyone who is keyed and desires to raid is being included.  Some more or less frequently than others.

The changes to raid policy don't alter the intention to include everyone it just presents the format that will be used to select raiders each week based on the best raid composition that we've been able to come up with based on our  experience with the instance to date.  To some extent this is extra clarity.  The officers are not arbitrarily selecting people and they have posted the template for everyone to see.

In practice the template is going to be more of a guideline and will not be writ in stone.  Its going to be based on who shows up each night.  Also, just because we get 30 people to show up keyed, doesn't mean that there will be automatically three groups with good balance and people may still be sitting out.  We have seen that there is a lot of discontent in the guild if one kara group seems to be stronger on any given week (whether or not the perception is accurate) so a lot of effort has to go into making sure that the groups are both balance for the instance and balanced against each other.

I think the raid leaders are doing a good job of balancing the need to include people in a run and the need for the run to be successful.

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Frosh
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2007, 09:52:16 AM »

RE:  If KoR has 1 <class>, the 1 person will always raid.

This is true to an extent but based upon the context of the raid at large.  The template is something we want to follow as closely as possible;  loot distribution is one thing we look at (the more classes present, the less chance of a shard);  'gimmick' fights is another thing. 

A fight like moroes, for example, needs at least 2 (and more often than not, 3) forms of crowd control.  Viable forms of crowd control are hunters, priests, and to a much lesser degree, paladins.  (sorry, i still have yet to see a mage frost-kite, though i've heard it can be done Wink).   We can use any combination (3 hunters, or 3 priests, or 6 paladins...2 hunters 1 priest, 2 hunters 2 pallies, 2 pallies 2 priest, you get the idea..).  For Oz, we need at least 1 fire type of caster - warlock or mage, mage is ideal.  We need at least 1 warlock for Oz (fear on roar).  Maiden is ridiculously harder without a paladin.  Attunmen needs 2 tanks.  Moroes needs two tanks.  Curator needs dps that  - having too many healers or having too many tanks (in other words, having too little dps) makes the fight next to impossible. 

To that end, the template is just for the guild's information to let everyone know what the officers think has the most success in karazhan.  The change to the policy just helps us achieve this on a more regular basis.  Ultimately, the raid formation will be a function of who shows up (if 7 hunters and 3 paladins show up, the raid leaders certainly won't prohibit such a group from going to Kara, though I"m sure at least 2 hunters and 1 paladin is going to say "this is a waste of time...".).
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jezziga
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 10:48:43 AM »

First - I am not for or against Avid or any other poster - I am for or against an idea.  I tend only to post contrary opinions.  I guess I should start also posting "I agree" notes.  For example, I agreed with Avid's and Kymber's (and I think Bazerk's) posts on Kara raiding back in May.


Honestly, I think it would go a very long way to speak up when someone says something good that you agree with - but in a non-confrontational way.


Now, back to the contrary opinion of the idea: Yep, I'm sure it sounds kind... I rank it right up there with "Let them eat cake."

Hey, I've got an idea, lets swap players based on boss loot drops - if you've already gotten the loot for your class it then you get swapped out for someone that hasn't.  No void crystals.

Well, maybe that won't be necessary for me soon.  I switched spec a couple weeks ago since I was told only one prot warrior is needed in Kara and I'd have a better chance of running as DPS.  It's probably only an other month or so to build my DPS set up so that I don't totally gimp the raid and I will then have a chance to get tanking gear from an instance that will probably be on farm status so that maybe I will get in for the learning curve on the new content in the next instance (which is my enjoyment of the game).  Of course, by then, we'll probably have recruited enough to fill the 25 mans and no one will want to run Kara but maybe I'll make the instance after that.  Who knows, anything is possible.

There is no loot requirement for Kara - Jezz is going in crap dps gear. If you are not signing up and showing up on Tuesday your name does not go on the list of people who have been "unable to raid".



I make a differentiation between mission statements and a guild address in the same way I feel there is a difference between the Constitution and the State of the Union Address.

My preference would be for the officers efforts to be concentrated on figuring out how to get the class balance issues corrected and 3 Kara runs going so that more guild members can participate on a regular basis rather than working on instituting restrictions on the existing runs.  What about Alliances?  What about Alt/Main runs?  What about both? What about something else? What about communicating what you've been thinking and discussing?

Current policy, from my point of view (i.e. not one of the 80+% runners), is directed at how the few can advance and does not uphold the mission statement of the guild.

You are right - there is a difference between the constitution and the state of the union address - and I actually agree the mission statement should be updated. However, I have found that the only portion of the old mission statement that is incorrect is the lower half of section 1. regarding lower levels. We no longer focus or "require" helping people level from 1 > 70. Although there is certainly help available form 60 > 70 if you are willing to ask (see also Elviself's thread for suggestions).

There have not been 30 players available for Kara in months. The officers did try to have 3 Kara raids once and it will never happen again (unless there are drastic increases in membership) because class balance/player skill balance was so spread out that 2 of the raids completely failed. The restrictions they are putting on raids is absolutely necessary. No matter how hard we try we can not bring 5 under geared and inexperienced players on a raid and get anywhere. We can, however, bring 2 or 3 and still be successful. 2 or 3 is still a lot - this means that we can not have a policy in place that requires 5 under geared and inexperienced players be put into the raids that week. It is exclusion but is exclusion for the good of everyone not just the "regular" raiders (history shows that inexperienced and under geared players don't like to spend 2 hours wiping on Moroes either).

An alliance isn't really feasible to get the 2-6 people who are sitting out into a raid on T/Th/Su. Let's play along for a minute that we could get another guild to throw their "extras" each week at a 3rd Kara run. The chances of having good class balance with those extras is not very likely. Who would set up that third group - their officers or ours? How would we handle loot? does that mean we would have to come up with a loot system for ten mans? How do we even find this guild? What happens on Thursday when people don't show up for our raids? To me this sounds like a horrible horrible nightmare.

Right now alts are used as fillers for good class makeup over the two different raids. Frostburn and Fuscha are great examples of this flexibility. They come on whatever the raid needs them to play whenever the raid asks. I did this last week too - started on Jezz early in the raid Tuesday and switched to Jez later on in the instance when we needed more dps. Steve also did this last week with Nevets to replace Eleth (who was having connection trouble) but later came on Frosh (I think).

In all fairness you have to sign up and show up to raids to really know how they work and how we are really doing. You think they are changing policies to help the "a team" progress? Why have we lost so many players then? It's because the officers refuse to screw over the nice people in the guild who are not hardcore in skill, gear, or availability. Now you might say that they are making this policy change to keep the "a team" from leaving... That could not be further from the truth. This policy change (as I said earlier) has been made to keep the casuals who are complaining about 2 hours of wiping on Moroes as happy as the hardcores who are complaining about 2 hours of wiping on Moroes.

It is probably more fair to say this policy is for the officers so they don't have to listen to the members - hardcore or casual - complain about class balance to no end in spite of them going over the raid list painstakingly to put the two best possible groups together for progression and fun.
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Duren
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 11:45:34 AM »

I am not in kor now, please dont discount my post because of that.  The officers in kor try beyond anything I have ever seen in this game to make your raids fair.  I had seen more officers sitting out raids then i thought was needed for any given week.  They sacrifice so that other may raid, and are among the most quality people i have met in my travels in wow.  You have no idea of the asset you have in them.  The sacirfices they have made have been for the betterment of the guild, and ensuring that everyone has fun is far harder then assuring epics.  They have put the guild first, and progression second, this has to be commended, in this day and age of wow.  There comes a time however that a guild must progress, and that time seems to be now, the proposed changed will do nothing but help the guild down kara, sometimes class balnce must alsp be considered when looking at who shall raid.  I know, and so should you, that elements of fairness will always be apart of the process, and everyone will get a chance to raid.  The work and sacrifice your officers put into raids has to be commended, not condemned, this new policy will help you move forward. 

Elindal and Duren still have much love for anyone in KOR, and if you ever need someone for a party, Im your guy.
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Mukaka
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2007, 05:25:06 AM »

First, let us not forget the golden rules of forums:

Keep it constructive! Officers are trying really hard to make the game fun and fair for everyone. Our officers aren't imposing policies and rules for the own selfish reasons. While they do discuss things in their own forums and across the table in RL, they *do* listen to suggestions and feedback of the guild. They play the same game the rest of us do (perhaps a little more frequent than some of us more casual players) but they are all too familiar with the pulse of the guild. If you don't like current policies, suggest some alternatives. The more thought you can put into your suggestions the better. Many ideas seem good until you think it through for: the casual vs the hardcore players, the amount of effort required by the officers to implement the new policy, etc. It is so easy to criticize, but if you've ever tried to organize something as complex as hundreds of different personalities, goals, play schedules, etc you will learn that you cannot keep everyone happy all the time. Our guild is really in good shape and has some of the smartest, kindest, patient people you will find in game. It really hurts them when they spend hours of their week planning, discussing, researching, and organizing raids -- only to be "thanked" by a knee-jerk reaction to  their efforts to help make things better.

Keep things positive! Reading forums is THE NUMBER ONE WAY to get yourself in a foul mood. Bad moods are contagious. It starts with someone reading "heated replies" in one thread, then they go to another thread and "read too much into someone else's statement" and their mood translates it with the most negative connotation possible, the reply is posted with a counter-jab, and pretty soon another thread is contaminated. Don't only post when you feel the need to disagree. All feedback is needed, both positive and negative. Sure there is always room for improvement, but it is highly unlikely anything will ever be perfect. The "80% rule" is a good one to strive for. If most of "it" is working, call it good and enjoy. Refining that last 20% takes as much effort as the other 80% did. Is it really worth it? Probably not. When you're about to communicate something negative, stop and see if you can communicate the same thing with a positive slant.

For example... How NOT to say it:

Quote
Grynni, You just turned 70 a week ago and you are upset because you haven't got your Kara key yet? Cry more! Do you realize how long it took most of us to get our attunement? You'll get your attunement to Kara in due time. We've all helped dozens of guildies get their Kara  keys, there's no reason we won't help you. Learn to LFG n00b!

I don't see how anyone would have an issue with us trying to make better use of loot from Kara? Your issue seems to be that you're upset about not being in the Kara raid. But just because you can't raid yet doesn't mean that the original idea that in this specific case, it might be better to share loot outside of the raid than to disenchant it.

With a little more thought the response is more positive and more constructive:

Quote
Grynni (and the others who have recently achieved level 70), we're excited that you are now 70 and able to start joining us in instances! You leveled quite fast! Unfortunately even though you're level 70, you still have some catching-up to do. Many of us spent months at level 70 in 5 man instances before we were able to step foot into Karazhan. Our equipment mostly sucked when we first hit 70 and if we were able to get keyed in a week and enter Kara, we'd fail miserably due to our poor equipment. The level 70 instances provide equipment that is just about as good (and in some cases equal or better) than Kara. At level 70 many of us changed our talent spec from a "leveling-spec" to a more "group/raid-friendly" spec. The 5 man instances gave us opportunity to learn our new spec, to become familiar with our new spells in instances, to become familiar with the abilities of the other classes, to be comfortable with the teamwork of grouping, etc. A few months ago, there were 25+, then 40+ people running the level 70 5-man instances very regularly trying to either get Kara attuned, or helping others so they we would have enough to form at least one regular Kara group. Now many of these people are at a point where they are working on the level 70 5-man heroic instances... since you are missing the faction from running these instances dozens of times in normal mode.

But fear not! Most of us still love to run normal 5 mans, especially to help such a kind and cute Warlock like yourself. And where we painfully struggled to learn and get new equipment together, you will mostly benefit from others' experience and equipment. Where it took us months to get attuned, you will do in a fraction of the time. Many of us competed for the loot that dropped, where now most of it will be yours for the taking! Of course you can still experience it the "hard way" by grouping with other "new level 70s". If you run with level 70 alts, you may still compete for gear, but you can still benefit from their knowledge of the instance and the fights.

Once you get attuned to Kara, you are immediately eligible to raid Kara! Our guild has very liberal raid policies (compared to other guilds) and you will again benefit by getting loot faster and experiencing the fun of the raid without many of the sometimes frustrating repeated failures. And if you feel you are missing out on "the learning experience", you will soon feel that as we venture into the many raid instances beyond Kara.

So in some ways it will be more difficult to get the 5 man runs you need, but your progression to catch-up to the rest of us will be very much faster. The key to getting a 5 man group going is to find a good tank and a healer. You have half that available to you with Ahmaj (and Murain) already. You should be able to scrounge up a druid fairly easily as a healer. Now you just need 2 more to fill in the ranks.
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Mukaka
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2007, 05:29:33 AM »

Sorry... yet another long post.

This Kara group selection problem is not new or unique to our guild. Don't believe me? Read the Blizzard forums. It is obviously a very well-known problem, with little or no good/fair solutions.

There are two ends of the spectrum for solutions to this Kara Raid Selection Delimna.

On one side you have the "hard core approach" where each raid consists of the same players every week. Each raid is of course comprised of the proper class balance and may do some minor substitution of characters depending on the boss or player availability. After one raid group gets Kara on farm status, it splits the members and forms two new raid groups each consisting of 5 of the experienced kara raiders and 5 new kara raiders. This is thought to be the most efficient way to progress through kara and get everyone back together in the 25 man raids. The big advantage is the consistency from week to week. You learn how to work together with the same members of the team. The biggest challenge is how to choose the first raid group(s) without hurting feelings, and to keep the rest of the guild together while they wait for the first raid teams to conquer Kara. This requires an amazing amount of maturity from every member of the guild. The top raiding guilds get away with it because they dictate who's in and who waits and if you don't like it, tough luck (that's life in the big pond).

On the other side you have the "completely fair approach" where the members of each raid change greatly from week to week in order to try to give everyone a chance to raid. If you have 20 people sign up, but only the proper class balance to form one well-balanced raid (leaving one badly balance raid), you form two groups anyway and to be "fair" both groups are equally balanced -- making both of them doomed to poor/moderate success at best. This makes everyone feel equal as far as how often they are included in the raid as well as relating to other guild members' progression. The problem is that even with minor swapping around for a better raid balance: the progression through Kara will be much slower, there will still be people who have to sit out (unless the number that show up for the raid is evenly divisible by 10), and most importantly the dynamics of your raid group is changing weekly while trying to learn complex fights. "It's tank X tonight instead of tank Y... oops, I pull aggro. It's healer A instead of healer B, I don't know him, so I heal his target cause it looks sick... oops, mine just died." In any case, the most extreme fair distribution of players across multiple raids (to maximize player inclusion) will result in every player facing bad odds which inevitably leads to varying degrees of frustration, failure, repair bills, etc.

KoR has wisely decided with the latest policy not to "guarantee" that if you sit our you'll automatically have a spot the next week. While the previous policy is optimally fair for inclusion, it is not fair for those who do not wish to spend their time with a raid that can not succeed. The new policy is a positive step from one extreme of the spectrum toward the other.

To quote a wise guild leader:

"Each week you should take a group that has a chance at being successful. An absolutely "fair" rotation is not neccesarly going to get you this result and could quite well be an impediment toward it. We are fair as far as we can be without impeding the raid group's progress. We would rather have to make one person sit out than to have 10-25 people wipe all night because we had to be "fair." Remember you have as much responsibility for the people that get into a run as those that have to sit out of one."

I also think we should be welcome to swapping in and out classes as need throughout the raid. For example we should swap in DPS for fights like Curator, Maiden and Prince. Other fights (like Aran) we may need more melee. Illhoof may be easier if by swapping in a second lock.

As far as other raid policies go... we beg/plead that you come with your consumables and are familiar with your role in each trash/boss encounter, but these are only firm suggestions but not hard requirements. Many hard core guilds will kick you from a raid or stop inviting you if you are: late, unprepared, unskilled, not listening to instructions, etc. I personally think KoR could benefit from a bit more discipline. One of the popular methods for casual guilds to introduce some discipline is to create a "raider" rank. Each character chooses whether they wish to be a more serious about raiding. Raider ranked guild members would be expected to uphold certain standards and be disciplined when necessary. The Raider rank is not based on how often you play nor is it meant to make raiding so serious it can't be fun, but it is basely solely on how well you are prepared and how well you follow the raid leader's instructions.

Out of each Kara raid group only 3 slots are available for non-Raider ranked members (exception may be may to have more or less in the raid in order to achieve a reasonable class composition).

If you are found in obvious violation of one major rule or two minor rules during a raid, you are demoted to a non-raider rank for a week (for each offense).

What constitutes minor and major violations could be voted on by the guild.

Perhaps a penalized member can reduce the number of weeks they are demoted by doing certain activities to help the guild.


Just a thought or two...
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Aniral
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2007, 08:23:01 AM »

I also think we should be welcome to swapping in and out classes as need throughout the raid. For example we should swap in DPS for fights like Curator, Maiden and Prince. Other fights (like Aran) we may need more melee. Illhoof may be easier if by swapping in a second lock.

Good post, Mukaka, except for the part I quoted. I strongly disagree with the approach some other guilds take to Kara, where they stack the raid for each fight. It seems to me to be nothing more than a crutch, and while it's not an exploit, it certainly seems to go against the spirit of fair play, because Blizzard balances raid encounters so that the whole instance should be doable with the same members from start to finish. Just my 2c, of course, but I'm against an approach like you mentioned when others do it, and I'd be against it if KOR did it.
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Helwin
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2007, 10:47:49 AM »

Very good post Mukaka, and I agree with Aniral's statement.  The whole encounter should be doable by the same group, provided that it is balanced to begin with  Wink


Edit: Fixed grammatical errors
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 10:50:34 AM by Helwin » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2007, 06:48:26 AM »

Quick question: Will there be a grandfather clause for people that were excluded from Kara last week and told that they would be guaranteed a spot this week? Nyteflower was promised a spot this week, that's why I ask.


I think that soon the Kara party makeup issue will become a moot point. That's what happened with UBRS; at first we were obsessive about party makeup. But then as we got better geared, that didn't really matter anymore, we could do UBRS with a tank, a healer and a dps (hunter preferred). The rest of the party was somewhat along for the ride. Kara is already trending that way if you do as many PUG Kara's as Nyteflower does. Two and a half healers are optimal right now in a PUG, but that will drop to two after a while, then probably to one and a half eventually (that might not be for awhile yet). Even now, I'm using less and less reagents with Kara, even in a PUG. Last week I did one all the way to Prince- I was the main healer of two and no one used a single potion or food the entire raid (except for mana and health). Easier times are coming for Kara. Patience young Patawa's Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

And if people can't make the weekly Kara raid with KoR, I'd actually recommend trying for a PUG. I've had great luck with them. Hammerclaw and Missymage are two contacts that usually need people for their weekly raids, otherwise there are at least two groups a night on the LFG channel. For people that know me, you will know that I HATE PUGs!!!! I've been burned way too many times, so I don't recommend this option lightly. But it is now a viable option for the leftovers that can't make into the KoR raids, espicially for the healer and warrior classes- they're always advertised as being needed for Kara PUGs. I should also mention that most of these aren't really PUGs; they are guild runs that are running short of people and need filler spots- usually an OT and a healer or two, but often DPS classes as well. There's really no reason that the KoR Kara leftovers couldn't pursue their own Kara run using this option now as well.

Don't be shy about looking around- there are now alternatives for getting your Kara on!

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Nyteflower
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2007, 06:54:14 AM »

Another question, perhaps not so quick...

Are you going to be predigest against certain types of healers or will all healers rotate out of the cycle equally?
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Frosh
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2007, 07:11:53 AM »

Another question, perhaps not so quick...

Are you going to be predigest against certain types of healers or will all healers rotate out of the cycle equally?

I don't understand the question.   Can you rephrase with an example perhaps?
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Kymber
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2007, 07:14:32 AM »

Another question, perhaps not so quick...

Are you going to be prejudiced [edit: spelling corrected to facilitate understanding Smiley ] against certain types of healers or will all healers rotate out of the cycle equally?

I don't understand the question.   Can you rephrase with an example perhaps?

I think she's asking if you will prioritize, say, Holy Priests > Holy Paladins > Resto Druids or do you just dump them all in the "Healer" box and treat equally. 
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Mukaka
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2007, 07:22:15 AM »

I'd imagine it is not that cut and dry. It probably depends on who the actual healers are, who the other healers are, who the MT is, etc.
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Frosh
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2007, 07:36:09 AM »

Another question, perhaps not so quick...

Are you going to be prejudiced [edit: spelling corrected to facilitate understanding Smiley ] against certain types of healers or will all healers rotate out of the cycle equally?

I don't understand the question.   Can you rephrase with an example perhaps?

I think she's asking if you will prioritize, say, Holy Priests > Holy Paladins > Resto Druids or do you just dump them all in the "Healer" box and treat equally. 

Unfortunately, holy priests, holy paladins, and resto druids all have protential to bring something very different to Karazhan.  As mentioned previously, priests for buffs as well as shackle on moroes and ushers makes them very appealing.  Pallies for buffs, tanking trash from front entrance -> moroes, blessing of Protection for garotte make them very different from a priest or a druid.  So to say that all classes capable of healing are treated as equal would be a fallacy, but to say all classes of all specs will have an equal shot would be accurate.  (Ret/prot pallies, shadow priests, boomkins and ferals all help offset this such that it would be certainly possible to dual-heal karazhan with two [same class] healing while not gimping the raid of the buffs/utility provided by pallies/priests/druids.   Lord knows how shaman will fit in to all this Cheesy)

Mukaka is also correct - there are several factors involved in determining who will be providing the crucial role of healing (same with tanking..)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 07:38:34 AM by Frosh » Logged

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