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Author Topic: man oh man(uh)  (Read 3178 times)
Aniral
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2007, 02:42:11 PM »

Er... you could only have one flask on you before, so I'm not sure what your point is about bringing lots of flasks, Frosh. The problem is, as Nethaera said on the Blizzard forums, they had to balance encounters with the fact in mind that players could be zomg buffed to high heaven. If they hadn't, putting those buffs on would have trivialized encounters, so the elixirs, flasks, whatever, then became required. Now, they might still be required, but at least you are required to have, at most, one flask or two elixirs. It's technically a nerf, but I'd say it's a good nerf. Even without having farmed for tons of consumables, I can see how much of a pain that would be. Why not reduce the pain?

Also, this wouldn't be the first time Blizzard has used game balance to fix social issues (if we assume that this is the case here, which I doubt). People refused to accept hybrids which were anything but healing-specced, so Blizzard buffed the non-healing specs. Feral tanks, pally tanks, had seemed to be viable to me pre-expansion, they just needed to be better so that the community would accept them, I guess.
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Frosh
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2007, 02:45:50 PM »

putting those buffs on would have trivialized encounters, so the elixirs, flasks, whatever, then became required.

Required by....fa da da - raid/guild leaders.   BLIZZARD didn't require people to go out and farm stuff, raid leaders did in the name of progression.  if KoR required every guildy to show up buffed to the max, then i would "thank blizzard for the fix"  when in reality, i need to just find a guild that suits me better .... 

I don't have any problem with the 'nerf'/'fix' one way or the other - i've NEVER flasked and only Elixer'd a couple times to the best of my knowledge (at least, never purchased or asked for one..sometimes random guildies give me things and i drink them;  same IRL Smiley) so it doesn't affect me.  However, I find it funny Wink
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 02:47:25 PM by Frosh » Logged

Aniral
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2007, 03:16:13 PM »

putting those buffs on would have trivialized encounters, so the elixirs, flasks, whatever, then became required.

Required by....fa da da - raid/guild leaders.   BLIZZARD didn't require people to go out and farm stuff, raid leaders did in the name of progression.  if KoR required every guildy to show up buffed to the max, then i would "thank blizzard for the fix"  when in reality, i need to just find a guild that suits me better .... 

I don't have any problem with the 'nerf'/'fix' one way or the other - i've NEVER flasked and only Elixer'd a couple times to the best of my knowledge (at least, never purchased or asked for one..sometimes random guildies give me things and i drink them;  same IRL Smiley) so it doesn't affect me.  However, I find it funny Wink

Either you misunderstood me, or I misunderstood you. What you quoted from me was me saying that, based on the blue post on the WoW forums, encounters were tuned with these flasks/elixirs in mind. That is NOT being required by raid/guild leaders, that's being required by Blizzard. That is the very definition of Blizzard requiring something, imo (when they tune an encounter with the assumption that you will have something in your arsenal).
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Frosh
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2007, 03:24:23 PM »

I'm not certain, but I feel guilds are trying to progress too quickly;  to progress this quickly requires 'outside' help in the form of flasks, elixers, etc...

There's 2 ways to increase DPS:  farm gear from and/or consume.  Guild leaders, from what I've read, are not COMPLETELY skipping the 'farm gear' part, but it looks like they are requiring and relying a lot on pots and flasks. 

I agree that blizzard is doing this to 'fix' their stuff, but its a nerf - and that's my point, blizzard NERF'D consumables and i'm seeing people /cheer because they're tired of farming...funny, no?

Unless blizzard ALSO tunes the encounters in the SAME patch, the /cheer is going to turn to "/zomg we have to go back to MC?!"
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Rivs
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2007, 03:29:35 PM »

I'm not certain, but I feel guilds are trying to progress too quickly;  to progress this quickly requires 'outside' help in the form of flasks, elixers, etc...

There's 2 ways to increase DPS:  farm gear from and/or consume.  Guild leaders, from what I've read, are not COMPLETELY skipping the 'farm gear' part, but it looks like they are requiring and relying a lot on pots and flasks. 

I agree that blizzard is doing this to 'fix' their stuff, but its a nerf - and that's my point, blizzard NERF'D consumables and i'm seeing people /cheer because they're tired of farming...funny, no?

Unless blizzard ALSO tunes the encounters in the SAME patch, the /cheer is going to turn to "/zomg we have to go back to MC?!"

I would hesitate using the word "relying" when refering to raiding guilds' use of elixirs. Even after gearing up like mad, some of the encounters are still varely out of reach, and outside help from pots, elixirs, etc. is necessary. Call it the "easy" way out if you will, but for the time being they are somewhat necessary to remove roadblocks to better gear.
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Aniral
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2007, 04:24:26 PM »

I'm not certain, but I feel guilds are trying to progress too quickly;  to progress this quickly requires 'outside' help in the form of flasks, elixers, etc...

There's 2 ways to increase DPS:  farm gear from and/or consume.  Guild leaders, from what I've read, are not COMPLETELY skipping the 'farm gear' part, but it looks like they are requiring and relying a lot on pots and flasks. 

I agree that blizzard is doing this to 'fix' their stuff, but its a nerf - and that's my point, blizzard NERF'D consumables and i'm seeing people /cheer because they're tired of farming...funny, no?

Unless blizzard ALSO tunes the encounters in the SAME patch, the /cheer is going to turn to "/zomg we have to go back to MC?!"

I would hesitate using the word "relying" when refering to raiding guilds' use of elixirs. Even after gearing up like mad, some of the encounters are still varely out of reach, and outside help from pots, elixirs, etc. is necessary. Call it the "easy" way out if you will, but for the time being they are somewhat necessary to remove roadblocks to better gear.

That's what it's always seemed like to me: if you're working on the most cutting-edge content, you need consumables to give you that little push over the top, which then, ideally, get phased out as you pick up gear from the instance you're conquering. If you're not working on the most cutting-edge content, the dungeon has been fine-tuned more, and it's more feasible without the use of consumables (I wasn't a part of these days, but BWL 1.0 was supposedly a rock wall of difficulty, Ragnaros 1.0 was buggy to the point of being undoable, I remember quite well how C'Thun was never killed until a nerf got hotfixed in). It seems to me that the price you pay for wanting to be on the cutting edge is a heavy time and consumable investment, gear farming or not. Why shouldn't there be celebration if that price is lowered? Also, I don't know that it's terribly accurate to say that people are skipping farming gear. By the time we finish Kara (unless it goes really well, and falls in short order), our Kara raiders will have picked up numerous pieces of gear from that place (unless there was nothing better to be had, which is the case sometimes), just because learning takes so much work. Each new boss will have some sort of new challenge, which will have to be overcome--we will overcome it, but that takes time. How many Ebonroc/Flamegor situations can we expect, where we kill a boss who has given us lots of trouble, and then down the next two without so much as batting an eyelash? Not many, imo, or at least I hope not.

There's also the fact that Kara is somewhat lacking in good loot, from what I hear (and looking at some of the cloth that drops there, I'd have to agree, although I haven't looked at anything else). How much will someone want to farm Kara for gear, if the gear consists of marginal or nonexistent upgrades?
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Avid
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2007, 09:05:41 PM »

I dunno about that gear, there are a couple of really nice daggers in there. Anyways, we seem to be dropping a boss a week. Its not like we can actually keep this up forever, but its nice to be hopeful. We downed the huntsman (the gear check) with relative ease. Tonight we downed Moroes (the coordination check) with a little more difficulty, but he's dead nonetheless. Maiden may prove to be a bit trickier, but I have little doubt we can do it with a few runs. She hits like an elephant and chews through melee, perhaps this is the ranged/healing check. I think we got this.
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satrissian
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2007, 07:47:36 AM »

I'm not certain, but I feel guilds are trying to progress too quickly;  to progress this quickly requires 'outside' help in the form of flasks, elixers, etc...

There's 2 ways to increase DPS:  farm gear from and/or consume.  Guild leaders, from what I've read, are not COMPLETELY skipping the 'farm gear' part, but it looks like they are requiring and relying a lot on pots and flasks. 

I agree that blizzard is doing this to 'fix' their stuff, but its a nerf - and that's my point, blizzard NERF'D consumables and i'm seeing people /cheer because they're tired of farming...funny, no?

Unless blizzard ALSO tunes the encounters in the SAME patch, the /cheer is going to turn to "/zomg we have to go back to MC?!"

I kinda hear what you are saying Frosh, but I also think you are skimming past the part where the blue says that the encounters were designed with a fully buffed raiding group in mind.  That doesn't imply a fully buffed, poorly equipped raiding group to me.  That means it's a fully geared AND fully comsumabled raiding group that is required to succeed in an encounter. 

Frankly, from the perspective of the casual raider, this is a fantastic game balancing move.  Where only the hard core folks would have ever had a prayer at some content before, now everyone can eventually take a swing on a closer-to-level playing field.  As it is now, hard-core raiders have the advantage in the higher tier of loot which they have acquired (and very deservedly earned), but can also manage to spend the tons of time farming mats and gold to create the consumables that the blue said Blizzard assumed all raiders would have when tuning current encounters.  Gear, coordination, and skill all seem like reasonable requirements for progression, but why also require hundreds of hours of boring repetitive farming? 

I support the faster progression of those who raid more based on their experience and loot rewards, but requiring huge expenditures for consumables on top of that doesn't seem necessary.  Sure, some hard core guild members are now going to be less harrassed by their raid leaders, but in the larger scheme of things, casual guilds will now be able to progress without bying gold from farmers.  And yes, I fully expect Blizzard to screw up the "tuning" of the instances and leave all of them too hard, resulting in a painful nerf.  But, in a perfect world, this is much more than a social fix.
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Jaxartes
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2007, 08:18:47 AM »

Hm.  I dunno I agree with you, Avid.  Limiting consumables actually removes one of the great "field levelers" that casuals have available to them.  KoR in our new-content pre-BC raiding days was notorious for the amount of consumables we went through.  We were very much a better living through chemistry kind of guild.
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satrissian
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2007, 08:33:03 AM »

Hm.  I dunno I agree with you, Avid.  Limiting consumables actually removes one of the great "field levelers" that casuals have available to them.  KoR in our new-content pre-BC raiding days was notorious for the amount of consumables we went through.  We were very much a better living through chemistry kind of guild.

Perhaps, but I think the point is that the new content is designed to require both top-notch gear AND full consumables.  Consumables seem no longer to be field-leveling substitues for gear, but rather an every-raid requirement that make raiding painful for hard cores and nigh impossible for casuals.
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Jaxartes
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2007, 09:33:15 AM »

Hm.  I dunno I agree with you, Avid.  Limiting consumables actually removes one of the great "field levelers" that casuals have available to them.  KoR in our new-content pre-BC raiding days was notorious for the amount of consumables we went through.  We were very much a better living through chemistry kind of guild.

Perhaps, but I think the point is that the new content is designed to require both top-notch gear AND full consumables.  Consumables seem no longer to be field-leveling substitues for gear, but rather an every-raid requirement that make raiding painful for hard cores and nigh impossible for casuals.

Well, that was sort of my point.  Avid appears to see this as a field-leveler with hard-cores.  I see it as a widening gap, a vanishing middle-class, if you will.  Cheesy
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Avid
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2007, 10:13:14 AM »

Wait, what did I do, I was just commenting on how I like the epic daggers in there.
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Sicro
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2007, 10:27:07 AM »

Actually the good thing about Kara is the weaponry - there are some decent rings, necklaces, etc. but the other loot is lackluster.
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So...Are these rules or guidelines?
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